Not endorsing any opinions but just throwing out something to think about..

What if you were the one who was owed money from someone else? If this money made you dependant on paying your bills would you not try everything (such as calling at 7:00 in the morning) to get your money? People may think harassment is not the answer but if it came down to you being able to pay for your own bills.....

Just an idea thrown out.. Don't support harassment or other shady means.. </disclaimer>

Originally posted by str8jkt What if you were the one who was owed money from someone else? If this money made you dependant on paying your bills would you not try everything (such as calling at 7:00 in the morning) to get your money?

I don't think of calling someone at 7 am as harassment.
I used to work where I sometimes interacted with a consumer protection group, though, and you would be amazed at the lengths some collection agents go to. Calling someone 40 times a day IS harassment and so is calling all of someone's family members to tell them the person is a deadbeat (parents, children etc) or calling someone's boss repeatedly.
I definitely see the other side of things, too.
It is a shame that children are not taught the basics of personal financial management. I do blame the credit card companies to a large extent, as well. They encourage debt and hand out cards as if they have no value.
I was stunned that my son was sent two different credit cards his first year of college, even though he was living on his own with only a part-time job. I can only assume they send them out to every student, regardless of circumstances.

Originally posted by mbg Yes, these liberated women get to behave like men, minus the accountability. The media doesn't give this nearly enough attention. Hollywood started to get some balls when they portrayed this in American Beauty, but now it's subsided. We need repeated, persistent pressure to show what is wrong with women today (generalization, of course).

Let me guess you also like your women to walk 3 paces behind you too I thought this thread was about debt responsibility - and not stereotyping one sex over another.......

Originally posted by snagglepuss Let me guess you also like your women to walk 3 paces behind you too I thought this thread was about debt responsibility - and not stereotyping one sex over another.......

You are the second person to have a knee-jerk reaction to what I said, yet none of what I said is untrue. I'm a bit confused about what you want me to say.

Originally posted by dewcat Wow! Feeling a little misogynistic today? Bitter? I think most posters agree that it's not just dad's who are deadbeats and that everyone should take responsibility.

No, that's like me saying "that killer should be locked up!", him turning out to be gay and you calling me a homophobe. Men have more perceived accountability than women in society.

In truth, though, no matter what should happen, in practice mothers still tend to have custody after divorce and MOST child support payments (overdue or not) come from fathers. On average , women's incomes go down after divorce and men's go up.

Are you sure about this? If you were to tell me that women's EFFECTIVE incomes go down, and men's go up (effective meaning that the delta between earned income and post-expense income increases for women), then I might agree.

Originally posted by mbg We need repeated, persistent pressure to show what is wrong with women today.

Now, now, mbg. Please read this again. Even your rigid thinking can't possibly consider this just a factual statement.

Originally posted by roxxyroller str8jkt! You are not only a lil hottie...but u are a saint too! Well said babe!!

Curious you'd say that, after comments you previously made, such as "Or to call at 7 am dammit!". Or were you saying it more as thanks that str8jkt caused you to see a potential other point of view?

Originally posted by mbg We need repeated, persistent pressure to show what is wrong with women today (generalization, of course).

Well, as long as we're speaking in generalities, then we also need pressure to show what is wrong with men today. Why not just generalize it to 'what is wrong with people today'?

Originally posted by chdude3 Well, as long as we're speaking in generalities, then we also need pressure to show what is wrong with men today. Why not just generalize it to 'what is wrong with people today'?

Because we "know" what is wrong with men today. We are reminded of it with every sitcom, advertisement and father's day card.

Please, rewatch American Beauty, and realize that Annette Bening's role is NOT some ridiculous exception.

Originally posted by dewcat Now, now, mbg. Please read this again. Even your rigid thinking can't possibly consider this just a factual statement.

You seem to be treating me as someone who is against the women's movement, and I'm not. What I am against is the bastardization of the women's movement into something that is was not intended to be, and the support it has garnered from emasculated males and "buy now, file bankruptcy later" women who only exasperate the problem.

I realize that there are a large number of women who do not contribute to this problem, but the number that do is significant enough that it needs to be flagged for attention.

Originally posted by mbg Please, rewatch American Beauty, and realize that Annette Bening's role is NOT some ridiculous exception.

I don't believe that the annette benning character is a ridiculous exception. There are lots of people like her, obsessed with image, certainly our society is greedy and way too fixated on material possessions and economic success, and this is not unique to men, and this leads to leading the 'leveraged' life so to speak, having the fancy car, and the perfect house and perfect clothes and you don't actually own any of it and this leads to spending beyond your means and being up to your eyeballs in debt. I personally never thought that this was unique to men. I started to say that i didn't understand what that had to do with the women's movement, but i thought about it for a minute and think you are trying to say that one of the detrimental side effects of the women's movement is that women now as well as men are obsessed with money and greed and power. Is this what you are getting at? There may be some validity to that, an unfortunate side effect of empowering women to believe that they can do anything men can do, good bad and the ugly....

One more thought, I think women were image oriented and defining themselves by material success (leading to living beyond their means) long before the women's movement but instead of doing it vicariously through their husbands (by marrying rich, or maxing out his credit cards or the joint bank account), they're doing it on their own now. So i still think it's a people issue, not a women's issue.

Originally posted by alligator I don't believe that the annette benning character is a ridiculous exception. There are lots of people like her, obsessed with image, certainly our society is greedy and way too fixated on material possessions and economic success, and this is not unique to men, and this leads to leading the 'leveraged' life so to speak, having the fancy car, and the perfect house and perfect clothes and you don't actually own any of it and this leads to spending beyond your means and being up to your eyeballs in debt. I personally never thought that this was unique to men. I started to say that i didn't understand what that had to do with the women's movement, but i thought about it for a minute and think you are trying to say that one of the detrimental side effects of the women's movement is that women now as well as men are obsessed with money and greed and power. Is this what you are getting at? There may be some validity to that, an unfortunate side effect of empowering women to believe that they can do anything men can do, good bad and the ugly.... One more thought, I think women were image oriented and defining themselves by material success (leading to living beyond their means) long before the women's movement but instead of doing it vicariously through their husbands (by marrying rich, or maxing out his credit cards or the joint bank account), they're doing it on their own now. So i still think it's a people issue, not a women's issue.

I agree with most of what you said, but I think we are talking about different layers of the character. Yes, she behaves like a man, but the sense of entitlement and lack of accountability are what makes her different.

Yes, you can and should be allowed to have what men have, but you can't throw away the negatives and responsibilities that come along with those "haves". That is the world of the product commercial, not the one we live in.

Another misconception that isn't totally related, but is along the same lines, is this idea of "if the world were run by women...". If you look at some of the decisions women leaders have made, you'll see a very different picture.. but somehow statements like this are accepted and taken seriously.

Originally posted by mbg Please, rewatch American Beauty, and realize that Annette Bening's role is NOT some ridiculous exception.

I never claimed that it was a rediculous exception. Who's to say I've ever seen that movie? It does so happen that I had the misfortune to watch that film, however. The family portrayed is so horribly disfunctional that I shudder to think that there is anyone alive who resembles anyone in that movie...

Accountability - aren't all responsible adults supposed to be held accountable for their actions?

Hmmmm, stereotypes are stereotypes new or old, they serve no purpose. Gender roles changed substantially in the last century. The days when men were the sole breadwinners and women the sole caregivers are gone. Sadly we are still struggling with finding new identities.

People have problems, to bring gender stereotypes into the discussion only makes matters worse. There are violent people, there are controlling people, there are irresponsible people and there are abusive people, I could go on. These problems occur in people of both genders, all races, and all cultures.

There's a lot more I would like to say about the subject of gender roles, and equality, but I'm a little too tired right now. Perhaps another thread should be created, this is getting way off topic.

- Brian

Originally posted by CATCLAW73 well said

Originally posted by CATCLAW73 well said girl

Originally posted by CATCLAW73 well said roxxy!

Originally posted by CATCLAW73 VERY WELL SAID,

Who's well, and what did they say?