Originally posted by CSK'sMom It's possible alligator, in fact it does happen from time to time. Here is a pretty unbiased risk assessment...

well after reading that...if that's unbiased, it makes raw milk sound pretty risky for the general population. my take was it seemed that the 'farm family immunity' was what kept the one's who'd been drinking it their whole lives from getting sick, but i find this pretty scary:

In April, 1986, 67 children and 12 adults visited the farm and were given unpasteurized milk, straight from the farmer's tank. Over the next two weeks, 42 children and four adults became sick with cramps and diarrhea. Three children ended up in the hospital with hemolytic uremic syndrome, and one fell into a coma. All eventually recovered. The public health investigators concluded verotoxin-producing E. coli in the unpasteurized milk caused the illnesses the guests had drunk. The farm family, who drank this milk every day, did not show any symptoms, and had no idea their milk would cause harm to their guests.

that doesn't sound like poor hygiene on the part of the visitors, more that the farm family was more tolerant than the general population. which is what had happened with the child i talked about earlier, the family who ran the farm drank it all the time and was fine, but the little boy who wasn't used to it...

I don't know that i'd be brave enough to try raw milk myself, and after reading that, i'd definitely be nervous about giving it to children or the elderly...the potential benefits are not enough for me to take the risk, imo....

Originally posted by CSK'sMom Whenever we had a cow that lost her calf we would routinely milk her and drink the milk. Not in huge quantities though as we had beef cows. We even thought seriously about keeping a jersey just for the family milk... In fact when a cow comes in to the milking parlour her udder is washed and sanitized before being hooked up to the milking machines.

see, you'd probably be okay, you'd probably have that farm family immunity...

perhaps if i knew the family well, and knew for sure that they sterilized the udder well... but i'd be afraid to buy it from a store, not knowing how scrupulous the suppliers would be...

Originally posted by alligator well after reading that...if that's unbiased, it makes raw milk sound pretty risky for the general population. my take was it seemed that the 'farm family immunity' was what kept the one's who'd been drinking it their whole lives from getting sick, but i find this pretty scary: that doesn't sound like poor hygiene on the part of the visitors, more that the farm family was more tolerant than the general population. which is what had happened with the child i talked about earlier, the family who ran the farm drank it all the time and was fine, but the little boy who wasn't used to it... I don't know that i'd be brave enough to try raw milk myself, and after reading that, i'd definitely be nervous about giving it to children or the elderly...the potential benefits are not enough for me to take the risk, imo....

But Alligator, my point was and still is that that group became ill after a tour of the farm that happened to include a taste of raw milk. There would have been no way to positively identify the milk as the culprit at 2 weeks plus after exposure. It could have just as easily been a case of poor hygiene. I would be willing to bet money that everyone of those visitors pet cows and calves. In all likelyhood even bottle fed a few calves. If they didn't wash their hands properly....

Originally posted by alligator see, you'd probably be okay, you'd probably have that farm family immunity... perhaps if i knew the family well, and knew for sure that they sterilized the udder well... but i'd be afraid to buy it from a store, not knowing how scrupulous the suppliers would be...

Could very well be but I doubt it. We only lost 3 calves over 10 years and we didn't milk one of the cows, we fostered a dairy bull calf to her. Alligator if you ever get the chance, go visit a dairy farm. The regulations are pretty strict, if a tank of milk is contaminated it must be dumped and the farmer looses. Each tank is checked before pick-up. If they don't supply XXXX litres of milk each and every pick up day they're quota is reduced.

There is a pretty rigid routine they go through twice a day when milking. All the dairy farmers we know have fairly new barns but I can give you a quick idea of what milking time is like... The cows know when milking time is and start heading for the barn waiting to get in. Each cow has an computerized ID tag. She comes into the holding area waiting to get into the milking parlour. As she enters the milking parlour she walks through a tray that contains disinfectant and is washed off of any mud on her body. As she walks into the milking station her ID tag is read by a computerized reader, it keeps track of exactly how much milk she produces as well as how much feed she eats. There is a pit area that runs between milking stations. Before she is hooked up to the milking machine each teat is sanitized, either with a dip solution or with disposible single-use wipes by the dairyperson. At the end of milking the entire herd the whole milking parlour must be washed and sanitized. All equipment and hoses must also be cleaned after each milking...

Originally posted by CSK'sMom But Alligator, my point was and still is that that group became ill after a tour of the farm that happened to include a taste of raw milk. There would have been no way to positively identify the milk as the culprit at 2 weeks plus after exposure. It could have just as easily been a case of poor hygiene. I would be willing to bet money that everyone of those visitors pet cows and calves. In all likelyhood even bottle fed a few calves. If they didn't wash their hands properly....

I don't know one way or the other, but Alligator's quote did specify the following:
The public health investigators concluded verotoxin-producing E. coli in the unpasteurized milk caused the illnesses the guests had drunk.
It just seems that the percentage of people that fell ill seems quite high, given that they directly ingested raw milk.

Originally posted by CSK'sMom Alligator if you ever get the chance, go visit a dairy farm.

yeah, i'm sure the washing hands thing is definitely part of it...

I have been (as i mentioned earlier). it was a couple years ago, and it wasn't at milking time, we just petted the veal calves and talked with my cousin's cousin for a bit...

my aunts and uncles farm, i've been around farming all my life although not a dairy farm as much, more cash crop and my one aunt and uncle had beef cows but have since gotten out of it. i even delivered a calf once.

I seemed to think that they stayed in their stalls for milking but I didn't scrutinize that much when i was there, more asked about whether the cows get to go outside, and how much milk one would give (they have purebred holsteins with the fancy names and everything - like a purebred dog). but the next time i go i'll be sure to ask more questions...I wonder if they drink raw milk? I don't know...

But chdude the first line of the paragraph Alligator quoted was snipped. The whole paragraph reads like this...

Many of the outbreaks that have occurred over the last two decades have involved school children on field trips to visit a farm. A Kindergarten class trip to a typical Ontario farm illustrates this only too well. In April, 1986, 67 children and 12 adults visited the farm and were given unpasteurized milk, straight from the farmer's tank. Over the next two weeks, 42 children and four adults became sick with cramps and diarrhea. Three children ended up in the hospital with hemolytic uremic syndrome, and one fell into a coma. All eventually recovered. The public health investigators concluded verotoxin-producing E. coli in the unpasteurized milk caused the illnesses the guests had drunk. The farm family, who drank this milk every day, did not show any symptoms, and had no idea their milk would cause harm to their guests. In another, similar incident, five individuals from Edmonton became ill after drinking unpasteurized milk on field trip to a nearby farm. The local health authority identified the bacteria as Campylobacter which was isolated in both the milk from the farm and a stool sample.

Please take note of the first line. In that case from 1986 it was indeed a fieldtrip to the farm. Both the above cases were fieldtrips, so the contamination could have come from anywhere on the farm. From personal experience with health departments there is no way they could conclusively say that it was the milk 2 weeks after the fact. That milk was long gone and tanks cleaned and sanitized in between. Health dept's only step in to do limited testing if asked by a doctor after a diagnosis is confirmed. None of that happens quickly, it takes time not only to get test results confirming a diagnosis but then to do the required testing at the several areas of possible infection. I wouldn't exactly say that a large percentage of those that drink raw milk fall ill, according to the CDC only 1733 people got sick from raw milk between 1973 and 1992. That seems a very small number to me....

Originally posted by alligator yeah, i'm sure the washing hands thing is definitely part of it... I have been (as i mentioned earlier). it was a couple years ago, and it wasn't at milking time, we just petted the veal calves and talked with my cousin's cousin for a bit... my aunts and uncles farm, i've been around farming all my life although not a dairy farm as much, more cash crop and my one aunt and uncle had beef cows but have since gotten out of it. i even delivered a calf once. I seemed to think that they stayed in their stalls for milking but I didn't scrutinize that much when i was there, more asked about whether the cows get to go outside, and how much milk one would give (they have purebred holsteins with the fancy names and everything - like a purebred dog). but the next time i go i'll be sure to ask more questions...I wonder if they drink raw milk? I don't know...

I use to artificially inseminate our whole herd of registered limousin cattle. Every cow had her registered name and her stall name. We had cows named everything from Ebony Princess to Black Storm to Red Wonder. I pulled a couple of calves over the years and even helped our large animal vet repair a prolapsed uterus in a heifer. That cow went on to be one of our best. The calf that she prolapsed with was a bull calf. My boys showed that bull and he was a grand champion. My daughter use to go to school in JK and SK telling all the kids how she had just watched a calf be born and how it was all slimey! When we sold the herd we were fortunate enough to sell the herd as a whole to 1 buyer, they provided a substantial downpayment for this house. We even go and visit the herd a couple of times a year.