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HOME > The Bowl > Thinking Outside the Bowl > Intensely Serious Debate > An Honourable War?
   
 
An Honourable War?

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What is the percentage of honourable intention in the war with Iraq?
This poll is closed.
100% 0 0%
80% 6 8.96%
60% 3 4.48%
40% 6 8.96%
20% 23 34.33%
0% 29 43.28%
Total: 67 votes 100%
 

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mbg  
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Feb 25, 2003  7:29 AM 16

Originally posted by maleman74
Good thread. However the first lesson in Political Science is Politics is WAR. I believe it was stated in the movie JFK that the "main principle in a governing society is its war capabilites".
War is big business,



Lots of things are war. Why would you look to JFK for political advice? If the main principle in a governing society is its war capabilities, then Canada is a 3rd world country.

why if Bush is so concerned with weapons of mass distruction when the US own most of them?



Compactly, the general idea is that Saddam is a lunatic who might use the weapons because he was having a bad hair day. Israel is probably a concern as well. Also, if Saddam has WOMD then he can supply anti-US terrorists with them.

We, of course, know that there is more to it than WOMD (oil, etc).

Israel has nuclear weapons and the most arms in that region. I don't know about chem/bio weapons. Israel always figures into the problem in some way

On the news last night Saddam is proposing a TV debate with George W. Bush. The propoganda for the media is interesting to say the least. Imagine no one on the TV would ever lie to the public.



Yeah, it's a bit irrelevant. It's not a bad move on Saddam's part, though. We hardly ever hear from Saddam, and when something he says does get out, it doesn't sound all that bad. He actually sounds quite reasonable if you don't have any prior knowledge of his behaviour (which is also how Bush manages to sound reasonable to HIS people . It makes Bush look a bit more war hungry, especially when he denies Saddam the debate opportunity (if only because it'd make Iraq seem human, which isn't something you want to do when you're about to blow its people to pieces).


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Common Cents  
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Mar 11, 2003  7:23 AM 17

Well this poll (with approx. 50% of us believing in 0% honour) so far shows that the Bowl has very little belief in the honour of this so called 'war' - looks good on our American 'friends'! It really is their own fault of course - they really should've put more work into the initial lies regarding the reasons for this action. I mean in Gulf War I, they set it up nicely with encouraging Iraq to (re-)annex Kuwait - but this time - Yow! - they've really have to get better writers. Anyways, maybe this is what they wanted all along - they have burnt through the first 2 years of Bush Jr.'s presidency without having to even touch the economy (except for all that under the table stealing of course). So perhaps that was the goal all along - create the smoke of 'war' to misdirect the marks from the pocketpicking festival?!?
One remarkable note is that Canada didn't climb on board this rat-infested ship of war. Very unusual - I'm sure Mulroney is still busy counting his payoffs from his work with Bush Sr. - so I'm surprised the boys in Ottawa haven't lined up for their big ladle 'o gravy from Uncle Sam.

The next week or two promises to be a great show as the Americans crank up the rationalization machine and we enter the new era of global colonialism. (I hope they go after Tibet when they're done with North Korea and Iran.)

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
:bow:$$$$$:bow:

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alligator  
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Mar 17, 2003  12:44 PM 18

Honourable or not, war seems imminent...

US, Allies Abandon UN on Iraq


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radar  
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Mar 17, 2003  1:37 PM 19

few more interesting reads ...

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artm...icle_1883.shtml
Pope to Bush: Go into Iraq and you go without God

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artm...icle_1886.shtml
Bush believes God is his copilot

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artm...icle_1887.shtml
Religious leaders worry about Bush's use of religion to justify war


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GilardiYuck  
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Mar 18, 2003  9:33 AM 20

What's honourable about billionaires wanting to get richer and richer?

Power corrupts, and absolute pwoer corrupts absolutely, or so they say.....

(where is the PEACE smilie?!?!?!?!)


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Common Cents  
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Mar 21, 2003  6:30 PM 21

On second thought it must be honourable -- if the Americans saw fit to kill 500,000 of Saddam's evil little minions (aka: Iraqi children) through UN sanctions between the great wars, then surely they are carrying on in this tradition of high honour now.

(Note: Please read quickly... this link to UNICEF statistics was quickly deleted when I posted it last fall.)

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
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Common Cents  
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Apr 03, 2003  5:56 AM 22

President Bush said if Iraq gets rid of Saddam Hussein, he will help the Iraqi people with food, medicine, supplies, housing, education - anything that's needed. Isn't that amazing? He finally comes up with a domestic agenda, and it's for Iraq. Maybe we could bring that here if it works out.
- Jay Leno, The Tonight Show

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
:bow:$$$$$:bow:

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i6s1  
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Apr 03, 2003  2:01 PM 23

Originally posted by Common Cents
On second thought it must be honourable -- if the Americans saw fit to kill 500,000 of Saddam's evil little minions (aka: Iraqi children) through UN sanctions between the great wars, then surely they are carrying on in this tradition of high honour now.

(Note: Please read quickly... this link to UNICEF statistics was quickly deleted when I posted it last fall.)





While using lanuage like "saw fit to kill" might sway the uninfomed, you may want to stick to the facts if you want to create a good argument.

First of all, the sanctions are from the UN, not the US. Everyone should be aware that at the UN, the US isn't able to act as a lone force directing policy. So if you're going to blame the US for the deaths, please give equal blame to all the other countries supporting the sanctions.

Second of all, if these children had died because they were not promplty given cell phones and DVD players upon birth, you might have a case. Food and Medicine is allowed in by sanctions, it's mostly the fault of the Iraqi government that the infant mortality rate is so high.

To prove my point, read this quote from the article:

In the autonomous northern region, under-5 mortality rose from 80 deaths per 1000 live births in the period 1984-1989 to 90 deaths per 1000 live births during the years 1989-1994. The under-5 rate fell to 72 deaths per 1000 live births between 1994 and 1999. Infant mortality rates followed a similar pattern. Today's under-5 mortality rate of 131 per 1000 in south and central Iraq is comparable to current rates in Haiti (132) and Pakistan (136).



The autonomous norther region is under the same sanctions as the rest of Iraq. They recieve a portion of the oil money, the Iraqi government recieves a portion, some goes to Kuwait for war reparations, and some goes to the UN for an administration fee.

So how then, does the autonomous norther region manage to lower it's infant mortality dispite "crippling economic sanctions?"

Easy. It spends the money on food an medicine, schools and the like. The Iraq government spends enough on food to give each person 3 weeks of food per month, and then spends the rest on, um, I don't know.

Only a cynic would suggest that Saddam's $8 billion personal fortune isn't from his wise investing and frugal money management. And it's definately not being spent on rewarding palistinian suicide bombers. And I'm sure it's not being spent on WMD which there is no conclusive proof he has.

I'm sorry the facts have gotten in the way of your anti-american rampage.


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Common Cents  
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Apr 12, 2003  12:18 PM 24

War is a racket. Only a small inside group knows what it's about. It's conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes, and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is a racket.
- Retired Major-General Smedley Butler, USMC 1933

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
:bow:$$$$$:bow:

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Rustling Leaf  
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Apr 12, 2003  7:29 PM 25 Dell.ca: Great deals on Windows PCs!

Anyone who wants an example of this racketeering should do a search for "Cheney Haliburton contracts".

Dave.


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bookhead  
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Apr 13, 2003  1:07 AM 26

Originally posted by Rustling Leaf
Anyone who wants an example of this racketeering should do a search for "Cheney Haliburton contracts".

Dave.



..or how about this story from the yesterday's (Saturday) Globe and Mail's Report on Business section:


Iraq a field of dreams for big oil firms
Calgary Ñ The war for oil is only just beginning.

Three trillion dollars Ñ that's trillion, with a T Ñ in profits and royalties are up for grabs in Iraq as the world's largest oil companies vie for the rights to rebuild, expand and exploit the massive reserves in the country.
Hundreds of billions of barrels of cheap crude may lie beneath the sands of the Iraqi desert, waiting for the drill bits of Western companies that have been largely shut out of the country since the oil industry there was nationalized three decades ago.
The prospect of such a bonanza could hardly come at a better time for the big players in the global oil industry, who have long eyed Iraq's reserves and who face a tough task in replenishing their reserves of oil in order to maintain production and revenue...




(N.B.: The entire quote box above is the hyperlink to the the Globe website's full version of the story.)


{EDIT}Or here, in a second Globe story from yesterday, hounourability from a second angle:

Robbing the cradle of civilization
By Graeme Smith and Caroline Alphonso ÑPriceless antiquities stolen from museums

...Prof. Gerstenblith was among the antiquities experts who met with Pentagon war planners in January to warn them about 4,000 vulnerable cultural sites in Iraq.

The national museum in Baghdad was at the top of the list, she said.

"The U.S. military was told repeatedly by members of the archeological community about the tremendous significance of the collections and museum itself. It was in the area that was under the control of the U.S. military for at least the last two or three days.

"To have not taken what would have been a very simple step to protect it is extremely disappointing and, depending on the damage, could be considered a disaster."

Like other archeologists, Prof. Gerstenblith noted that the U.S. troops who allowed the looting to happen may have violated the 1954 convention signed at The Hague that guarantees protection of cultural property during war.

John Malcolm Russell, an archeologist at the Massachusetts College of Art in Boston, said he called a high-ranking friend inside the Pentagon as soon as he heard about the looting.

"He can't imagine what happened because he thought there were troops in place," Mr. Russell said. "It should have been a priority for protection."

McGuire Gibson, a professor of Mesopotamian archeology at the University of Chicago, agreed: "It's a great tragedy."

But at the Pentagon yesterday, U.S. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld shrugged off the concerns about looting. "Stuff happens," he said. ". . . Where they [U.S. forces] see looting, they're stopping it. And they will be doing so."



Stuff happens indeed!


(N.B.: Once again, the entire quote box above is the hyperlink to the the Globe website's full version of the story.)

Civilization is a pyramid scheme. -Ronald Wright Edited by bookhead on
Apr 13, 2003 at 6:59 AM

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Common Cents  
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Apr 29, 2003  4:58 PM 27

It has been many days now that the US has been searching for the alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction with no luck so far. But yesterday, I heard the first convincing proof that Iraq definitely does possess them in the following quote:

"Of course we know Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction, we still have all our original invoices."
- Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary / 28 April 2003

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
:bow:$$$$$:bow:

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bookhead  
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May 14, 2003  4:12 AM 28

Evidence seems to be pointing towards dishonour of a most insidious nature...

Civilization is a pyramid scheme. -Ronald Wright
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Common Cents  
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Jun 03, 2003  4:32 AM 29

I'm sorry to be the one to wake up the Intensely Serious Debate forum, it just looks so peaceful when it's sleeping like that.

Anyways, I couldn't resist posting a link to these War Profiteer Cards.
(Hey kids! - collect them all!!)

But hey! -- don't worry, you've still got time to hit the snooze button, and catch one more dream of a sane world before the dawn of another crazy day...

"Wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things" - Ecclesiastes:10-19
:bow:$$$$$:bow:

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bookhead  
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Jun 20, 2003  4:55 AM 30

The New Republic magazine was a staunch supporter of the war in Iraq, however they now have come out with this extensive article -- The First Casualty: The Selling of the Iraq War.
Looks like even Bush's supporters are getting pissed off with the poor quality of his lies...

Civilization is a pyramid scheme. -Ronald Wright
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