They apprently have enough money to want to get a second television station in the Toronto market as well as plaster vague billboard campaign of non-descriptive images of religion (i.e. false advertising a.k.a. lying) billboards all around my city for this (btw - if they have the gall to call it alpha canada does that mean anybody who isn't a christian is a beta human being? Perhaps they think these betas are lesser people. Perhaps 3/5's of a human being? nah...they wouldn't be cruel ehough to support something like that ) I wonder if they've spoken with their Alliance Cons buddies about limiting these beta's right to vote like in Florida...

Well if these people have all this money for all these churches (didn't a whole lot more churches open up in closed down schools after the very Alliance Con Mike Harris closed all those grade schools...hmmm...), radio stations, television stations (and more apprently on the way) and billboards all over town perhaps since they say they care about people they should chip into the tax fund more for things like, oh I don't know, public heathcare and social programs?

Opinions? (Especially opinions on how to go about getting this done ).

I checked out their site briefly and all I have to say is WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!
The sad thing is, a friend of mine recently got married and her priest (Catholic) made her and her soon-to-be hubby take this "alpha" course in order to be married in the church -- I'd never heard of it before.

I'd rather be a beta than a brainwashed alpha.

Couldn't agree more -- make the cult followers chip in to help our ailing communities in ways other than praying.

Originally posted by gaitergal I checked out their site briefly and all I have to say is WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! The sad thing is, a friend of mine recently got married and her priest (Catholic) made her and her soon-to-be hubby take this "alpha" course in order to be married in the church -- I'd never heard of it before. I'd rather be a beta than a brainwashed alpha. Couldn't agree more -- make the cult followers chip in to help our ailing communities in ways other than praying.

Ah you're right - the Catholic's are just as bad - I've modded the title based on your observation. I agree I'd rather be a beta with a brain than an alpha with a mental lobotomy. Oh wait a sec...they appear to have a history with real lobotomy's as well

Originally posted by NakedGord Well if these people have all this money for all these churches (didn't a whole lot more churches open up in closed down schools after the very Alliance Con Mike Harris closed all those grade schools...hmmm...), radio stations, television stations (and more apprently on the way) and billboards all over town perhaps since they say they care about people they should chip into the tax fund more for things like, oh I don't know, public heathcare and social programs?

Geez, and here I thought that Liberals/New Democrats were accepting and very tolerant of people who were different from them.....including people of faith. Damn...could this have been another pre-election party lie?

Gord, don't you think people are taxed enough already? Are we put on this earth to be put on the govt. gravy train? Do you actually believe higher taxes will solve Canada's social problems? Don't individuals have a choice as to where they spend their pocket money, must the govt. tell them how to? If a Christian/Catholic wants to support their faith, does the govt. have a right to tell them they can't? Maybe we should all be given a small ration of our paychecks for survival and then give the rest to the Feds. Ouch, and you trust the Feds with more of your money?? I can just hear the porkers lining up! I dunno Gord, this doesn't fly with me.

Anyways, I don't think the problem exists only with churches having all this money. The whole ''what qualifies as a charitable organization'' should be revamped and looked at real closely.

The last time I checked religion was not taxed in Canada. It is not a question of being "taxed too much" it is a question of actually paying the same taxes that *everybody* else does. And this is not the question of a charatible org (even though I do realize they've been able to bully their way into that bracket). This is a huge wealthy org that apprently has the money to buy *mutiple* television station in the Toronto area. It would seem they have money enough to make up the Romero gap.

So short answer yes: People are taxed enough. If we started putting the money from the Christian/Catholic orgs into the public sector then I'd tend to beleive we'd see much shorter lines at the emerg and less homeless people dying on the street. And isn't this what the churches say they're after too?

As far as being accepting and tolerant this isn't ment to be offensive to anybody who is a member of these faiths. I do try to be accepting but these two groups have really pushed it of late.

I'm getting sick and tired of:

Having people walk up to me and start a conersation about a secular thing (star trek etc) and then at the end have them "invite" me to their church

Standing on a street and seeing an ad on a bus encouraging people not to get abortions

Seeing avaters and signatures telling me I'll burn in hell if I don't subscribe to what they believe on my students union message board.

To go into my laundry room in my apartment building and seeing church advertisement posted.

To wake up in the morning and seeing a flyer for a local church slipped under the crack of my door in my apartment while I slept

To see these flyer posted in bus shelters all over town

To see posters plastered all over campus for the campus religious group when ever other group puts them up in moderation (other religious groups and secular ones).

To see billboards everywhere I go in town on the road advertising religion but not telling people it's about religion.

To have all these above mentioned ads use tactics that prey on those who are in an emotionally weak state (lost, alone, confused keywords etc)

To have the only radio station I can get on my radio on the bus to be a Christian radio station

To have the strongest broadcast tv station in my area to be a Christian television station

To see that they are not leaking their word into media outlets where they were not before in an attempt to gain more converts but now to see them want to take over secular broadcasters that I enjoy watching (i.e. Toronto One)

Their pissy attidude against same sex marriage in society- when they have the right to not allow it in their religion

To see Alliance Con MPs on the news equate abortion to POWs having their heads cut of in Iraq

Their pissy attitude towards the decrim of pot

To have a friend be told by her bf's family she'd have to abandon her Jewish faith to marry him.

To have mormans knock on my door even after I've told them I'm not interested.

I have no problem with someone having faith. I have no problem if they believe unless you follow their path you'll go someplace bad after death. However unlike the Jewish, Unitarian faiths et al all these Catholic/Christian/Morman faiths keep sticking it in my face and annoy me (and I'm sure others)

Now I am pro-gay, pro-choice and pro women in the pulpit and taking the Jewish faith for example I believe they are opposed to these as well however they don't piss on my for having different views and don't plaster ads everywhere trying to get me to think otherwise. Sure I worry about the gay Jews and the women Jews inside of the faith however atleast I'm not always being bombarded and reminded of it.

These vague fraud-esque billboards and their attempts at buy Toronto One is the last straw for this camel. I've just sat on the sidelines until now. Now I have my new hobby - to fight and stop these people using every tool I've been given in this great democracy - and I'm sure the majority of Canadian who want to keep abortion legal, who want to allow homosexuals to express their love for eachother in marriage, who oppose the "glass ceiling" that forbids women from serving in the upper management of religion (i.e. the corporation) will support me.

I figure, since they pretty much are a corporation and corporations do pay taxes in this country (sure many contend not enough though) this would be a good start. It should be clear to everyone that the church has gone of a massive PR blitz of late so they must have the funds. I'm not talking about taxing individuals - I'm talking about taxing the church - and if those individuals chose to pay more at the collection plate so they can afford to have these mammath churches while people freeze to death on the street then that's their call - and I do believe if we did tax the church we'd see alot fewer homeless people.

Any ideas?

Originally posted by NakedGord (didn't a whole lot more churches open up in closed down schools after the very Alliance Con Mike Harris closed all those grade schools...hmmm...), radio stations, television stations (and more apprently on the way) and billboards all over town perhaps since they say they care about people they should chip into the tax fund more for things like, oh I don't know, public heathcare and social programs?

btw - this was the orig. section you quoted b4 I had a chance to compose a reply - I can remember what you wrote but am interested in your take on this section too.

Originally posted by ''' To give an idea of the direction the Catholic Church is going in, I was in Montreal this past summer, and when I stopped by Notre Dame Cathedral for a few minutes of quiet prayer on a busy day I was having, I found that they now charge $3.00 admission - not an optional donation mind you - this is strictly a pay to pray operation. It literally sickened me that day, to see the path my religion is taking. Forget about letting homeless people in to warm up, if the Catholic Church really operated under Christian principles, they would sell the jewels, the art, the real estate holdings, etc., etc., etc. and run the operation out of rented office space in Rome. So there inflexibility in the current African holocaust is really no surprise.

Taken from the condoms do not prevent aids thread. This is what I mean. I'm not attacking the people (as this poster is a member of the religion and wanted to pray there) I am against the management of the various churches who are attempting to brainwash the population with the Alpha Canada, television stations, radio stations, pamphlets et al.

Since they seem to have really gotton into capitalism of late what reason would there be not to tax them?

Wow, NG! This has really got you wound out - 5 out of the 7 posts in this thread written by yourself! (Though with how dead it's been in the Bowl of late, perhaps that's the only way to have an active thread these days?!)

Anyways, I essentially agree - the tax deal for all religious property and activity was cut in a bygone era - they now just use it to stuff their vaults full of filthy lucre - I say let them compete on a level playing field with all the other shills out there.

Okay, I misread your original post thinking that people who contribute to churches, should contribute more into the public coffers for healthcare, social programs, ....... it was unclear to me that you were talking about the churches/religous organizations making the contributions.

Wow, you're really getting hit with advertising. I get maybe 2 things in my mailbox annually with no phone calls or door to door campaigning, no one stopping me in the streets, and no billboards to look at. I'd also be ticked if the advertising was as heavy as it is for you. If religion was tossed in my face day in and day out I'd be mighty pissed. The religious organizations obviously have alot of money to be able to do this. Well who knows, your one man campaign may make a difference.

Originally posted by NakedGord btw - this was the orig. section you quoted b4 I had a chance to compose a reply - I can remember what you wrote but am interested in your take on this section too.

I screwed up in my quote originally so I edited quite a few times. But you know, I don't think we're too far off in this. I look at a church/religous organization as a charitable organization that I think should be heavily regulated/and enforced, and unfortunately I don't think it is. I think their books should be made public and profits should go back into the community for social programs such as homeless shelters, soup kitchens, battered men/women....etc. I also think the amount that goes back to the charity (its a ridiculously small amount) should be increased substantially. I'd like to see the funds go directly from the church to the social programs instead of being rerouted through the taxman. But if all fails, I'm game for them being taxed, they shouldn't be in the business of making money for profit like corporations. I think they're there to serve people, teach them their word of God, and give back to their community.

I'm sorry you have such a negative view on religion, NakedGord, but I thinking you are mixing a lot of different denominations, churches and individual actions together.

Trinity Television Inc. is not a church, it is a corporation. Corporations including Christian ones are taxed same as everyone else. Programs like the Alpha Course are funded by "after-tax" dollars from Christians who believe in the program. Let's not forget the substantial number of dollars in foreign and domestic aid and charitable programs which come from Christian organizations. Despite the success of some Christian companies and organizations, many small churches are closing in communities throughout Canada for lack of funds.

The Alpha course is actually a fairly liberal, and non-denominational program. It does not attempt to forward the specific agendas of some Christian denominations (i.e. the Roman Catholic Church). A great deal of the promotion of this program is done through donations and sponsorships. The courses are free and those running the courses are volunteers. The "Alpha" in the name refers to the belief that god is the "Alpha and Omega" the beginning and end of all things, not a reference to Christians being better than anyone else.

Issues such as homosexuality are matters of continued debate in many churches. I am not aware of the actual position taken in the Alpha course, but I do know it is unfair to characterize Christianity or religion in general as being "anti-gay". Unfortunately the religious argument continues to be an "excuse" for homophobes who are either ignorant of or refuse to recognize the very thin theological basis for condemning homosexuality. Those interested in a well written dissection of the various questions and the biblical basis should read Living in Sin?: A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality by John Shelby Spong.


Regardless of what you or I think of specific ideas held by various churches, they are an important part of many people's lives. Programs like the Alpha Course are helping many people find meaning and direction in their lives. I may not agree with some of their ideas, but anything that helps people find peace within themselves and in their lives is, IMHO, valuable. There don't seem to be a lot of secular alternatives. Religion may be a "crutch" but there are many people who seem to need one in their lives. I'm also not sure why you consider their advertisements, "lying". A quick look at the website, or a phone call to one of the people offering the course should make it evident.

Christianity's message is one of love, forgiveness, and understanding. As annoying as it may be, those who are seeking to share their beliefs with others are usually doing it out of an honest desire to share a happiness and peace they have experienced with others. Human nature being what it is, some will use their beliefs to make themselves feel better. Self-righteous atheists are as common as self-righteous Christians. In my personal opinion, the real cause is a lack of respect in our society for different beliefs. It widens the divide and brings us to a world where it is merely a facade to justify and hide people's own personal uncertainty and fear.

Just to show they're not all bad:

That is just priceless! Praise Juju!!!!!

"Hostility in Canada to Christian teachings about the sanctity of the family and life has resulted in persecution here at home," said the flyer, which used quotes from a speech Gallant gave to the House of Commons last December.

"The government has launched a campaign of intimidation to silence churches by dispatching tax collectors to threaten the charitable tax status of denominations who speak out against the Liberal government."

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/.../964406-cp.html

Interesting....Interesting indeed.

Hey NG sorry to hear about your advertising overload. I have some personal thoughts on this as well. Agree or not, it's ok with me.

1. Any and ALL charitable organizations should have to show their books.

2. The non tax status of all religions should be abolished.

3. NO religion should be allowed to go door to door to bother people. If you wish to visit your own parishoners, that's different.

4. There is a time and place for everything, but educational web-sites, etc. are NOT the place for religious postings and/or disagreements.

And that's MY truth.

Originally posted by Peanuts Hey NG sorry to hear about your advertising overload. I have some personal thoughts on this as well. Agree or not, it's ok with me. 1. Any and ALL charitable organizations should have to show their books.

Agreed.

2. The non tax status of all religions should be abolished.

Agreed.

3. NO religion should be allowed to go door to door to bother people. If you wish to visit your own parishoners, that's different.

The definition of religion can vary. You maybe believe strongly that Swiffer is god and nothing else has better products. Sales people can go door to door selling things. To say that people are banned from going door to door doing whatever they want is like saying that people don't have the right to walk around and speak.

4. There is a time and place for everything, but educational web-sites, etc. are NOT the place for religious postings and/or disagreements.

Again, the definition of religion is an issue. Everywhere biology textbooks have giant sections on Darwinism. Not everyone believes in that. You don't see complaints there about having the religion of "Darwinism" 'posted'.